How many of you refuse to vote on NG movies and games?

I'm a freelance game developer working for all sorts of companies big and small, as well as spending time pushing out my own indie titles.

James Dalby @mongoid

Age 45, Male

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UC Irvine

Irvine, CA

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French Roast Studios

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How many of you refuse to vote on NG movies and games?

Posted by mongoid - November 20th, 2010

I've stopped voting on Newgrouds submissions. To clarify, I've stopped writing reviews. Sure, I've written a couple in a few months, but it's a far cry from the amount of involvement I enjoyed offering Newgrounds a long time ago.

Why?

Because most reviews that I write that aren't overwhelmingly positive or at least a step beyond "Meh" are removed. This is a critical issue with me. I take opinions from others very seriously. If someone hates what I do, I want to know why. If someone is being abusive, I want to stand up for myself. If someone wants to write a paragraph on why I'm the worst game developer ever, I can't wait to read it. If I want to rant about how much I hate stick films, there should be an open forum for it provided that there are no personal attacks (e.g. "Kids like you shouldn't make flash games") and abusive language ("n****r, fag, cunt, etc.").

Newground's recent policy on voting doesn't really support this kind of free expression. Either that or Newgrounds moderators are too quick to tear down reviews that they believe are hypercritical. I understand that they're trying to keep things civil and open to a large demographic of user. But this kind of censorship compromises the validity of the NG rating system.

I hardly trust the 0-5 point scale that the site offers. Most people's votes are too polarized, resulting in a storm of 0's and 5's once a swf is submitted to the portal. It kills me that Achievement Unlocked and its sequel have higher scores than WaterLollies and Dad 'n Me, given the vast difference in production quality and polish. I also find it disheartening that the 5 point score is what determines if a submission is considered for a weekly or monthly award.

The true feedback comes from the review. If there's no room for brutal honesty, then all you'll get is false encouragement from those who only like your work, and there is nothing worse than circle jerking with a site full of ass kissers.

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Zonferno 2010-11-20 02:39:40

Good points man, I agree

TomFulp 2010-11-20 02:43:19

Our review mod policy hasn't changed in a while so it could be an overzealous review mod removing too many reviews - I'll have to look into the matter. If you can forward me some of your M-Bot PMs that quote the reviews that were removed, that would help too!

mongoid 2010-11-20 02:43:19

Will do.

JonBro 2010-11-20 02:51:09

I don't vote on a Flash if my reasons for liking/disliking it are skewed. Typically I just try and explain my thoughts on the creator's user page because I don't want my silly reasons to affect the Flash's score.

Regardless of the 0's and 5's, I think the voting system is perfectly fair. Those who vote 5 know their own opinions. Those who vote 0 know their own opinions. And there are a ton of people on this site who take all of the vote buttons into consideration, I being one of them. The way things work, some things are voted up and some things are voted down, and over time, the popular is forgotten and new great things appear. This cycle is welcoming, and even the completely forgotten movies will find recognition in searches and in events like the annual Treasure Hunt.

Of course, those are just my thoughts. But if you think there's nothing worse than 'circle jerking with a site full of ass kissers', you ought to realize the Newgrounds community consists of many, many people who aren't the totally unintelligable bipolar teenieboppers you make them out to be. It'd be kinda sad if you hadn't realized this, seeing as you've been signed up for almost a decade.

mongoid 2010-11-20 02:51:09 (Updated 2010-11-20 03:07:24)

I know that this site is full of great people. It's always a blast to hang out with authors at Newgrounds events.

Yeah, I've been on this site for a looong time. It's disparaging to witness the best features that make this site so great being abused. The system is fair in that everyone gets to vote. In fact, if it were a binary Yay or Nay system, there wouldn't be much argument. But the default 0-5 voting system is built to measure a somewhat more robust form of public opinion. A deluge of 0's and 5's break the system, and in fact keeps it from being perfectly fair. The objective votes that you're talking about get drowned out by the fanboys and trolls.

Looking for more clarity in the public's response is what the written review system is for, and removing the bad reviews simply because they're negative in nature is a wee bit of false representation of the public's true support.

Wurmy 2010-11-20 03:46:16

When I first started coming to Newgrounds and first made my account, I saw anything that had a 4.00+ score as being absolutely amazing (and from what I remember the stuff was amazing), and I was really proud of myself when i got a submission to be 3.50+

Sadly, I now realize just how easy it is to please the masses and get at least a 3.50. I kinda wish the 4.00+ score meant something but now its quite.. bleh :(

mongoid 2010-11-20 03:46:16

Yeah, I agree. :-(

jordanhawaii 2010-11-20 06:37:07

Sometimes I feel the NG community is as bad as YouTube. I agree 100% with you man, if you have a bad comment that shows your opinion and how it actually sucked ass, most likely its going to be voted "useless review." If I put a 0 on Whookoos videos it going to get removed. Why you may ask? Because i said, "this sucked ass because no effort was put into this you weaboo." The NG community is retarted going on random posts and copy paste a color like purple. Sometimes good flashes should just be posted on YouTube because:
1. Youtube community is bad but not as bad as NG.
2. The voting system and the usefull and useless system is fucked up
3. Good flash never go in front page sometimes.
4. NG noobs just watch flash on first page.

mongoid 2010-11-20 06:37:07

Youtube comments.... **shudder**

Vandal2 2010-11-20 06:49:49

I think that flashes like Cyanide and Happyness are WAY overrated, and quality flash is ignored.
My theory is the people that sit down and watch 2 minute skits, slap the 5 button without hesitation and don't bother on the real flashes, but the people that can sit down to a well animated, quality flash vote with a little more brains.

Not everyone votes irrationally but a LOT do. This is really unfortunate for the people that try there hardest and don't get recognized like they should.
The treasure hunt is a great example that showcases good flash.

mongoid 2010-11-20 06:49:49

I enjoy the treasure hunts, too. It's a good response to the fact that Newgrounds receives a HUGE amount of content everyday. I mean, think about it; I counted about 20-30 submissions a day over the past couple of week. With that much new content every day, there are going to be diamonds that fall through the cracks.

MindChamber 2010-11-20 08:57:25

Im curious about reading those reviews, you should post them there.

For the most part the review mods delete only the ones that break rules, or go a tirade without any mention to the submission what so ever.

Minus your personal experience, I think the system works very well. We have some of the toughest critics on any site.

mongoid 2010-11-20 08:57:25 (Updated 2010-11-20 19:29:56)

I'll admit that I've written short, mean reviews that deserved to be removed. They usually involve anything with stick figures. :-P But here's a couple of mine that were deleted which didn't seem to have any reason for removal, except that they may have been viewed as a little too direct:

-- This message is to inform you that the following review, which you left for Bubble Tanks 2 on 8/5/08 at 3:13:39 AM, has been deleted:

===============
Score: 4 / 10
Summary: Same ol' same ol'.
Review: What did you do? Copy and paste the code from Bubble Tanks 1?

No originality. Same sound effects. Little to no difficulty. What gives me any incentive to go to Armorgames to see the exclusive features if I can beat the game by hardly trying on Newgrounds?

Please make something fresh. Sequels like this only harm your integrity.
===============

-- This message is to inform you that the following review, which you left for FDA - ASSWARP on 3/27/03 at 6:21:18 PM, has been deleted:

===============
Score: 2 / 10
Summary: Dude, what the hell? This sucked.
Review: Look, guys, props to the thriller remix, but come on. It took you two years to do this? I could churn this shit out in a week.

This wasn't funny. This wasn't entertaining. This was flash animated crap. Had it not been FDA, this would have been blammed before the weekend.

20 different styles of artwork and animation at once? What are you guys thinking? There were probably four solid pieces of legitimate animation within this blizzard of poorly drawn, doodled cartoon characters and badly cut GIFs of celebrities.

The lyrics were forced. There was no legitimate story. All you did was rehash your old classic characters into a barrage of boxy JPEGs, choppy tweens, and artwork that looks like a 2nd grader went nuts with a crayon.

You guys are just like Hollywood studios, man. All the hype for a wad of shit. Don't quit your day jobs.

CatFat 2010-11-20 09:45:45

I also agree in terms of; i like to see people's opinions on my work whether sycophantic or severely detrimental, I find it extremely valuable. In fact, the reviews are what i most look forward to when submitting animations.
Though i don't think you should stop voting on things just because some of your reviews were removed, i'm sure the majority of authors that you were to review would be appreciative of your input as long as it's constructive. I too have had many reviews removed because i was highlighting the fact that the submission was stolen with supporting evidence, but as they had so many authors listed as a collaboration, they were able to report me and remove the review several times until i had no choice but to leave it alone or get banned.
Otherwise, i think the system is pretty great, just needs a few kinks worked out. Also i would like to see these removed reviews too! I think it would be interesting.

mongoid 2010-11-20 09:45:45

They're in my response to MindChamber. ^

Starogre 2010-11-20 09:50:33

yeah any negative review i write (even if i give a 3, not a 0) gets voted down as a useless review by the public. bitches aint know what they be talkin bout!

rayman359 2010-11-20 09:56:05

Rarely EVER write an review or vote anyore..Although writing review I havent been so much active on but still..Sure,sometime I find a gem among the piles of sh*t. That particular art/game/flash i vote on or possibly write on. But thats me..I agree on ur point either way.

//Insanity is my Sanity
Martin

C0mBineD 2010-11-20 10:12:14

best news post in a while

mongoid 2010-11-20 10:12:14

From me or in general?

WadeFulp 2010-11-20 10:31:55

If users feel they have had reviews removed that don't violate our guidelines it is important they forward a copy of their deleted review to us so we can see what is going on. Feel free to PM me with examples as I can use them to help better instruct the review mods. Keep in mind the review mods process tens of thousands of reviews. They may make a mistake here an there, but the percentage of mistakes should be extremely low. If we agree that your review was fine, you are welcome to resubmit it.

mongoid 2010-11-20 10:31:55

Interesting. It seems like the current system requires a lot of personal attention. What would you do to make it more self reliant?

I-smel 2010-11-20 10:50:01

I don't vote on stuff cos I like being level 1 forever.

score 1 fo the lil guys

mongoid 2010-11-20 10:50:01

Be strong, level 1, drifting silently in fog, watching us from afar....

FrozenFire 2010-11-20 11:02:09

Even If I like something If I see it's got way too high of a score I give it a 0. Nothing personal it's just if you look at the top artist rankings I don't see how most of them got there.

mongoid 2010-11-20 11:02:09

Gah... another reason why the 0-5 vote needs to be refined or abolished.

robotman5 2010-11-20 12:02:10

makes sense.

SimCorder 2010-11-20 14:11:31

If what you said about reviews is true, then how come these reviews haven't been deleted?

<a href="http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/reviews/520604/300/score">http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/revi ews/520604/300/score</a>

but I do admit though, writing a negative review is harder then it should be. You usually need to be a decent critique in order to have a legal 0 score review.

As for the voting system, in my opinion its kinda useless when a submission reaches a certain age. Since it has so many votes after a while, it makes your single vote almost worthless. Never the less the voting system is necessary in order to help sort the good movies and games from the bad ones.

mongoid 2010-11-20 14:11:31 (Updated 2010-11-21 02:22:21)

Yeah, that's the downside of having a large pool of aggregated votes. One vote in 1,200 can only shift the scale by about 0.004 points, and that's really only if it's a 0 or a 5.

rock-starclock 2010-11-20 14:16:53

Yeah I think the reviewing system is overrun by kiddies and douches. 90% of the reviews are about 2 words long or are quotes from the movie. Also mr. Fulp you should be careful on who you give mod powers, There is allot of douchebags on the internet.

mongoid 2010-11-20 14:16:53

Well, if kiddies and douches are your demographic, then it's not so bad... which is probably why Mario and Sonic DBZ sprite movies do so well.

Tycrane 2010-11-20 14:19:38

I vote 5 to every flash that I see deserves it and sometimes leave a comment on special occasions.

mongoid 2010-11-20 14:19:38

Why don't you leave reviews of 1?

matt-likes-swords 2010-11-20 17:57:18

I agree.
I only review games that I like now.

mongoid 2010-11-20 17:57:18 (Updated 2010-11-20 19:53:28)

Yeah, that's exactly what I feel is wrong. People are so afraid of getting their review removed that they're only willing to offer encouragement instead of criticism.

There are a couple sites out there like Metacritic and RottenTomatoes that have an interesting model for reviewing movies and games. Metacritic is an aggregated score from a lot of industry folk and professional reviewers.

Tailoring that for Newgrounds would be like offering two scores; a score from the general public like we have now, and a second score aggregated from reviews written by popular artists, animators, developers and musicians who have a certain number of submissions with an average score above 3.8 or higher. So now users can see reviews by a more professional group of individuals who have a better idea on how to judge the merits of a submission based on it's production quality, story, art, music, programming, design, etc.

jaxxy 2010-11-20 19:49:43

Dunno 'bout that...I still see some low-score reviews in your history. And if you scored any less than 5, was it really worth your time reviewing anyway? :/

mongoid 2010-11-20 19:49:43

This goes back to my point of if you're only going to receive encouragement for posting something, then what's the point of calling it a review? Not all of my critical reviews have been removed, but a lot of other ones have. Is it because of some mod who's sensitive to critical reviews? Probably. But, it still hurts the site to not allow the painful truth to be heard in regard to public opinion.

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