BoMToons 2010-11-21 00:05:23

I haven't written a lot of reviews lately, but I've found that when I stick to criticizing the work itself and stay away from the personal attacks the reviews stick.

I've been pleased with how quickly some abusive reviews have been axed from some of my submissions. On others the abusive ones seem to stay forever, so I wonder how the "threat level" of reviews escalates to a point of showing on a mod's radar.

There is probably room for improvement in the NG system, and I really like the idea of a "seasoned" classification for reviews where hand-picked reviewers get to assign a score. One thing I would like to see improved is the managing of "alt" accounts, or fresh accounts leaving reviews, cuz I've seen users, disgruntled by an author's response, create a bunch of alts, or pull up an army of old alts (or get a bunch of their friends together) and then spam bad reviews all at once...there's got to be some way to compare IP addresses or SOMETHING, even in this day of AOL ha ha.

That said, comparing NG reviews with other sites, NG provides a really well set-up system. From day one I've appreciated the blunt and harsh feedback NG has given my stuff, it's only served to help me improve, and I love the fact that the artist always has the last word.

For some reason, here the reviews, notwithstanding the smattering of lame ones, seem to be more well-thought-out and sincere and I value the feedback in a way no other flash site compares with...really, I view the review system on NG as one of the greatest strengths of the site.

MysticZen 2010-11-21 00:12:24

I love your insight on this "hidden" problem and to be honest I never really thought about until you brought it up.

I admit, I am one of those people who only look on the front page for my entertainment, but that is only because I never really have the time to investigate backstage for those rare goodies.

Once in a while, some stupid animation makes it onto the front page and I think to myself "What the hell?". But i have noticed that everything these days is about getting that quick laugh or acquiring that 15 minute fame or even trying to get attention through trolling.

"In the future everyone will be world famous for 15 minutes" - Andy Warhol, 1968
I found that quote on a wallpaper with a picture of Boxxy from Youtube.

Sooner or later, the world will fall apart because of the internet.

Danj3ris 2010-11-21 01:09:45

I agree with a number of your points.

I think a part of the problem is the "level" and "rank" features. Because judging a flash has become akin to a game, I treat the review system as EXACTLY that. In a sense, the way I rate flashes is indicative of the problems you are speaking of. When a flash is submitted to the portal, I will absolutely rate it as 0 or 5, simply because a 0 or a 5 is a better chance of guaranteeing that the flash will be either blammed or saved, depending upon how I feel about it. Hence, I have a better chance of going up in rank when things go my way, and because the higher my rank and level are the more weight is put behind my 0's and 5's, I have no reason to change my habits.

However, this does not hold true at all concerning my reviews. At least 75% of the time my reviews are actual critiques. Although I won't deny that I've posted a few reviews that were off-base, and they were deleted, and rightfully so. The number from 0 to 10 that I choose to accompany a review is a far more inherently accurate way of describing how I feel about a flash than the 0 or 5 that I feel compelled to use, only to "level up".

I'm with you in hardly trusting the 0-5 point scale. It's just a game to me, and although I hate taking something as serious as reviewing someone's work to the level of a game, the added bonus of "levels" and "ranks" only further supports this.

What should happen is really quite simple, at least in my eyes. The scores that should be trusted are the 0-10 scores that accompany a review that is at least "x" number of characters. A Flash's "current score" should not be the average of the 0-5 scale, but the "average score" of the 0-10 scale. This will undoubtedly lower the number of reviews a flash gets, especially if there is a character requirement. But those that take the time to write a review and attatch a score are those the artist should be listening to, not those of us like me, who play the game that is the 0-5 vote.

I do realize that the 0-5 system is how users of Newgrounds determine whether or not a flash makes a permanent home here. This is a good gate-keeping system, but that is where it ends. Aside from my other suggestions, I make another: Once a flash has been blammed or saved, take away the 0-5 scale. It should only act as a way to allow or disallow a flash's entry, not judge it forever more.

And just to sway the "game players" out there like me to actually take the time and effort to leave quality reviews, make the 0-10 scale award experience points. Give each member a rating of overall review usefulness as determined by other members. Keep the 0-5 scale experience as a measure only of a member's "portal defense". This vote can continue having weight added to it as a user levels up, but no way should the 0-10 scale be weighted. Although a user with a higher "useful reviews" rating should have their reviews displayed more prominently, maybe always sticking towards the top of the heap. Or just put a star next to the review so people know they can trust it.

Sorry for the long post. I realize now I'm suggesting an overhaul. But Mongoid's post really got me going.

JonBro 2010-11-21 01:25:54

Already commented once, but I'm back because this discussion is very interesting and a lot of valid points have been made.

I've noticed that any time a negative review for a popular Flash fills up multiple paragraphs and makes a few legitimate points without being downright rude, it doesn't get deleted--and sometimes it's considered to be a great review. Any negative review that is short or makes points that could remotely be considered 'ignorant' is either hated or thrown out of sight.

Because of this, I now only review something when I feel I have something to say. If I can't fill up a single small paragraph with useful suggestions or astute observations, I don't review. When I do review, I try to be as honest as I can be, so a submission could deserve a random score like 4 or 7 depending on my honest thoughts. I'd gladly leave an honest expansive review for a movie I don't enjoy, but it just turns out I really like most of the submissions I've seen recently.

Really, we either need everyone to start leaving insightful reviews, or we ought to take out all substanceless reviews whether they're positive or negative. I'm not sure of the flaws that could come out of that, but I believe the buttons below the reviews use the word "helpful" for a reason.

NerfedFalcon 2010-11-21 02:20:49

I only do the 0-5 voting on stuff that's already past the Portal page to make sure I get experience, and I just review totally at random. However, seeing this post and all this discussion...

I think it's time to renew my faith in the system. I also need to get some work of my own on this website, but that's not the point. The point is, everyone here is totally right. I need to bookmark this...

RIVE 2010-11-21 03:32:49

To quote myself, "Dude is it just me or does this have a score of 4.56! That's the highest I've ever seen!! And for good reason, this kicks ass! Way to go man!" That was my review for Xombie: Chapter 7 back in early 2006. Today that score can easily be met with an overrated concept or straight up crap.

thecatreturns123 2010-11-21 08:41:00

I don't vote much, but it's mostly out of laziness. I've also had a review shot down for reasons I don't know, and although it was very harsh, it wasn't offensive. Although, I did try submitting a terrible flash here once. It got shot down fairly immediately, so something must be going right here.

MindChamber 2010-11-21 12:23:33

those were some pretty hateful reviews. But they followed the rules, and theres no rules against being an asshole.

My guess is the reviews were flagged as abusive by so many users the review mod simply looked at that number it received, without actually reading your review, and deleted it. Thats some serious laziness and neglect on our part. So apologies for that are definitely in order, but I can say with almost certainty those reviews were removed because a mod was simply trying to clear the abusive reviews list, and not because of the actual content of your review.

we'll work on that.

ReNaeNae 2010-11-21 13:08:53

Yeah, I might be at fault for removing those. After a while all of the 'this sucks' and 'should be blammed' comments start to meld together. If it was in fact me, I'm sorry. I had originally only signed on as a review mod to help out with the art portion while that was getting sorted (which it now is) and figured I'd help more by tackling some of the flash list... guess that was a mistake! So. again, I apologize.

I have requested to be removed from the review mod line-up. Hopefully that will return your reviewing experience back into an enjoyable one :)

Shadowii2 2010-11-21 14:40:10

This here is one of the main reasons why I've practically left the site.

When YouTube came out and started to get very popular in mainstream media, I saw how the scoring slowly shifted on Newgrounds. From actually more honest reviews, to single line comments like "awesome". I don't even like to think about the review system as "reviews", I consider them comments.

I thought Danj3ris' idea was brilliant on how to change the system for better. Although, I think Newgrounds could use the similiar system from deviantArt: you can vote, favorite, comment or leave a critique. Though, dA artists commonly are not tolerant to any negative critiques: they only demand positive stuff, just like how it is on Newgrounds with the below-the-average authors.

Hope Newgrounds manages to pull off something to stop this kind of thing from completely ruining the website before every single submission have 5.001/5 score.

Cheers for a good news post.

WadeFulp 2010-11-21 14:59:16

The two reviews you shared are kind of borderline. If you look at our FAQ, the very first sentence of the very first rule is "Stay on the topic of the submission and do not make personal remarks or insults towards the author. This is a big offense. "

I think you made personal remarks and insults toward the authors in your reviews.

We could probably debate forever on what is too personal, what is an insult, etc, but it's easier if people just stuck to reviewing the Flash rather than pointing out the personal short coming of the artist.

JohnnyUtah 2010-11-23 23:18:23

mongoid I deleted the insightful review you left for me.

It was a nice present after I helped you with that character design in your game.

and now I won't ever help your scrubby ass with anything ever again, and I'm giving *you* a review of 2 out of 5 as a human being.

*tips hat*

Robo-Clock 2010-12-12 00:32:40

I dunno, I dont think your games aren't all that great,and yet you really feel like you are some kind of valuable asset to the community.

You're pretty full of yourself,

you should tone it down a bit.